tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post2691395086706120228..comments2024-03-15T08:29:53.273+00:00Comments on Leoxicon: The state of stative verbsLeohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16077987567636970527noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-9844239076553612722019-02-22T21:19:55.042+00:002019-02-22T21:19:55.042+00:00I'm not clear about whether they ARE LIKING it...I'm not clear about whether they ARE LIKING it or me. Having thought about it for a while though, it seems as if they ARE totally HATING it... or me!Hagit Lahavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17576006595139033036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-78330178991811647372019-02-22T21:12:55.236+00:002019-02-22T21:12:55.236+00:00Thank you for your comment, YasminThank you for your comment, YasminLeohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16077987567636970527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-58362827753214256472019-02-22T21:12:21.983+00:002019-02-22T21:12:21.983+00:00Thanks for returning to this discussion, Hagit.
Th...Thanks for returning to this discussion, Hagit.<br />The problem with Stative verbs is that it should have never been codified as a 'grammar rule' - it's clearly a lexical / semantic matter.<br />I'm sure you 8th graders enjoyed the class!Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16077987567636970527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-82538213884535942102019-02-08T23:34:23.512+00:002019-02-08T23:34:23.512+00:00Just had a few lessons with my 8th graders, summin...Just had a few lessons with my 8th graders, summing up the present tenses, then decided to give the following unit about stative verbs a go.... but this time i kept emphasizing the debate regarding static and dynamic, and the mantra: "rules were meant to be broken". We also demonstrated different "Englishes", BE, AE to show the cultural and philosophical meanings and interpretations that different English speakers express. This is the highlight of language learning to me, to be aware of these nuances and to cultivate meta linguistic awareness amongst students.Hagit Lahavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17576006595139033036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-6583136528201526072019-02-08T22:52:30.305+00:002019-02-08T22:52:30.305+00:00I really liked the class activity! it's encour...I really liked the class activity! it's encourages thinking!<br />I agree with the artificially status of stative verbs!<br />Hope to participate in your next course<br />YasminYasminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15740775154949998639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-2663568445342052922018-11-24T21:08:09.474+00:002018-11-24T21:08:09.474+00:00I love this blog. It's useful !!!I love this blog. It's useful !!!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17879353292178252333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-21622251825733906242018-04-20T21:34:37.142+01:002018-04-20T21:34:37.142+01:00glad you are, Hagit!glad you are, Hagit!Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16077987567636970527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-79137948509151028602018-04-11T20:46:48.247+01:002018-04-11T20:46:48.247+01:00<a href="Welcome%20to%20all%20of%20you%20in%20the%20India%20fastest%20growing%20In%20influencer%20and%20affiliate%20marketing%20Company%20in%20Varanasi.%20Smart%20Business%20of%20India" rel="nofollow"></a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16248565897936992168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-58796657774976892182018-04-09T22:22:13.582+01:002018-04-09T22:22:13.582+01:00Dear Leo- I'm sooo loving this post ...Dear Leo- I'm sooo loving this post ...Hagit Lahavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17576006595139033036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-49623467564516687262018-02-23T08:47:36.895+00:002018-02-23T08:47:36.895+00:00That would be an interesting topic to explore too ...That would be an interesting topic to explore too - in a future blog post. Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16077987567636970527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-21832922338717844502018-02-13T15:24:20.631+00:002018-02-13T15:24:20.631+00:00what about the use of redundancies such as "t...what about the use of redundancies such as "things we share in common"? Isn't sharing and "in common" redundant?G. Hoffmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-80010659090989570392018-01-08T06:55:31.932+00:002018-01-08T06:55:31.932+00:00Glad you enjoyed the post and the discussion that ...Glad you enjoyed the post and the discussion that followed. <br />Re telic verbs, quoting from the forthcoming Lexical Grammar:<br /><br /><i>a verb that implies a goal or an endpoint, e.g. arrive, drown, sing as in 'sing a song' (cf. 'sing along' which is not telic) </i>Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16077987567636970527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-86367881940745761232018-01-07T08:44:08.551+00:002018-01-07T08:44:08.551+00:00The post and the comments are very interesting her...The post and the comments are very interesting here, and I've learnt a new term (telic verbs) - or at least I think I have! Can you describe what they are?<br />Thanks,<br />SandySandyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08424295554789548012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-45413179835126389892017-12-21T23:10:10.746+00:002017-12-21T23:10:10.746+00:00yes, reminds me of my main point (re descriptive v...yes, reminds me of my main point (re descriptive vs pedagogical grammars) - works such as Biber & chums have been labelled structuralist much like Quirk & pals grammar but corpus based & use oriented; that is to say such taxonomic approaches are limited as cases can be made as you do for removing some classifications such as stative verbs<br />ta<br />muramurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07601619344830347801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-31835869857717523992017-12-21T18:43:06.344+00:002017-12-21T18:43:06.344+00:00Hi Julie,
Thank you for contributing to this disc...Hi Julie,<br /><br />Thank you for contributing to this discussion with insights from the learner corpus. I do not entirely rule out some sort of focus on stative verbs as a generalized topic to heighten the learners' awareness - at higher levels. The crux of my argument is against teaching grammar divorced from meaning and presenting stative verbs as a meaningless exception when there is a fair degree of logic behind their behaviour. But I think we both agree there.<br /><br />As we know, the simple / progressive distinction is one of the most common areas of difficulty. Therefore it's important to guide learners by showing that certain verbs show preference for one or the other, and that includes stative verbs, or rather stative meanings of some verbs.<br /><br />But I also find that part of the problem stems from the way the continuous forms are (inadequately) taught. Raising learners' awareness of the nature of the progressive as the form describing an action/event going on for a limited period of time (as I pointed out in my reply to Mura's comment above), to a large extent, takes care of the problem, don't you think?<br /><br />This way learners will see that some verbs by their very nature are incompatible or unlikely with the progressive aspect because actions or states or events they describe cannot be conceptualized as lasting for a limited period of time.<br /><br />Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16077987567636970527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-43859860771503189432017-12-21T10:51:44.281+00:002017-12-21T10:51:44.281+00:00Yes, Mura, I get it now. As Michael Lewis describe...Yes, Mura, I get it now. As Michael Lewis describes it in 'The English Verb', the progressive closes a present event/action/state (and, on the contrary, opens it up in the past). So the progressive is temporary and limited. There is no reason then to postulate the existence of a special group of verbs called Stative, because the description essentially covers all cases.Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16077987567636970527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-30334146104714971332017-12-20T11:13:43.244+00:002017-12-20T11:13:43.244+00:00Nice post and I like the idea that the increase in...Nice post and I like the idea that the increase in the use of progressive forms comes from us constantly updating everyone about what we're doing (not just by text, but on social media too).<br /><br />I would just point out though that from my experience working with learner corpus data, students DO quite frequently try to use progressive verb forms when they're describing states. There's plenty of evidence of "many people are having cars" and "the room is having a desk and a chair", etc. So, while I agree that it doesn't make sense to teach blanket rules about particular verbs, I think we do need to focus on their use to express particular meanings. Whether we do that verb by verb (as a feature of the lexis) or as a generalized topic (drawing several verbs and usages together), I think will depend on level.<br /><br />Julie.The Toblerone Twinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13743525124595227083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-25103385068585633462017-12-20T00:17:13.114+00:002017-12-20T00:17:13.114+00:00hi Leo
i meant you can "simply" (big sca...hi Leo<br />i meant you can "simply" (big scare quotes) explain those exceptions as temporary states, so as a pedagogic grammar still useful?<br /><br />sorry for confusion on "write" example of a dynamic verb; in this context i.e. describing the event of tapping on a keyboard - I am writing a blog comment makes sense (an ongoing event "unbounded" (or viewing the internal process of an event) but with an implicit boundary i.e can stop anytime the event (hopefully for your readers!); the non-progressive aspect of a present simple "write" is incompatible with the dynamic i.e. changing nature of the verb "write" i.e. at anypoint in the writing of this comment it is always in a state of change not fixed and enduring as the simple aspect implies;<br /><br />hope that makes sense?<br /><br />re the plural nouns/singular that is yet another facet into the mix much like transitivity e.g The food smells nice vs I am smelling the the nice food.<br /><br />ta<br />mura murahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07601619344830347801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-83744971966725161192017-12-19T21:46:00.932+00:002017-12-19T21:46:00.932+00:00Hi Mura,
Indeed, the examples I refer to ARE desc...Hi Mura,<br /><br />Indeed, the examples I refer to ARE described in pedagogic grammar as exceptions (mind you, SOME - not all - of these examples; others would be considered plain wrong). But the whole notion of stative verbs not being used in the progressive is already treated by pedagogic grammars as a sort of exception to the general rule (the general rule being ANY verb can occur in ANY form, which, as we know from corpus research, is not true). So is is an exception to an exception - I mean, how many exceptions on top of exceptions can learners handle?! And what for? And why?<br /><br />Regarding your last point, I'm a bit confused myself. Why can't "write" be used in non-progressive (i.e. simple) form?<br /><br />'What do you like to do in your free time?' ~ 'I write blog posts about issues people didn't think were issues before. At the moment I'm writing a new post for my blog.'<br /><br />Both forms are possible. And there is a semantic difference. I often demonstrate it to my students using the collocation "read a book/books".<br /><br /><i>I read books (on Kindle / on my way to work).</i><br /><i>I'm reading a (fascinating) book at the moment.</i><br /><br />The simple form tends go with 'books' in plural, and the progressive with A book (singular).<br /><br />Or am I not understanding you correctly? ;)<br /><br /><br />L<br /><br /><br /> Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16077987567636970527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-23833570996280274162017-12-19T21:23:38.418+00:002017-12-19T21:23:38.418+00:00I suppose if we say "collocates" (from c...I suppose if we say "collocates" (from collocation) we can say "colligates" :)<br />Thank you for dropping a line, Lindsey.Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16077987567636970527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-62052621480581896572017-12-19T21:21:58.638+00:002017-12-19T21:21:58.638+00:00Thank you for your comment, Jalmir.
Thank you for your comment, Jalmir. <br />Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16077987567636970527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-38845937030093636272017-12-19T20:32:32.429+00:002017-12-19T20:32:32.429+00:00hi Leo
i think maybe there are issues being mixed...hi Leo<br /><br />i think maybe there are issues being mixed here i.e. descriptive grammars and pedagogical grammars;<br /><br />your case is against the usefulness of pointing out to students that stative verbs (not i presume states in general?) are not used usually in the progressive aspect.<br /><br />but the exceptions you mentioned can be described in a pedagogic grammar as temporary states so i may be not loving the McDonalds slogan for now whereas i don't love McDonalds the brand indefinitely;<br /><br /><br />and some dynamic verbs are not usually used in non-progressive forms e.g. I write a blog comment (sounds odd here) vs I am writing a blog comment (sounds ok); I wrote a blog comment (sounds okay too in this context)<br /><br />ta<br />mura<br /><br />murahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07601619344830347801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-48058529233451775612017-12-19T16:23:17.905+00:002017-12-19T16:23:17.905+00:00Another great post Leo. Once again you demonstrate...Another great post Leo. Once again you demonstrate the arbitrary nature of a descriptive grammar. Why should Mr. MacDonalds not have his grammar day with "I'm loving it!" Yes, we should treat grammatical categories as vocabulary and explore their colligates ( can one say this?!); which is not terribly difficult these days with the plethora of lexical tools and corpora at our disposal. Cheers!Lindsey Shapirohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08079080720864935415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-25184145825456963492017-12-19T10:53:00.987+00:002017-12-19T10:53:00.987+00:00I do like the topic about questioning the grammar ...I do like the topic about questioning the grammar and its update. Language is a process and can not be ruled by a single point of view, detached from time and context. <br />Thanks for your thoughts! Jalmir Ribeirohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00282272263862284669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759462792103754770.post-19084716020734972017-12-18T22:36:10.150+00:002017-12-18T22:36:10.150+00:00And I thought you'd appreciate my line about o...And I thought you'd appreciate my line about our world being fleeting and fast-paced :)Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16077987567636970527noreply@blogger.com